並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E5%97%9A%E5%96%B5%E5%82%99%E5%BF%98%E9%8C%84/%E6%9A%B4%E9%9B%B7%E8%AD%A6%E5%91%8A%E7%94%A8%E8%81%BD%E7%9A%84%E8%AC%9B%E5%AE%8C%E5%A9%9A%E5%A7%BB%E7%94%9F%E6%B4%BB%E6%89%93%E7%A0%B4%E6%84%9B%E6%83%85%E8%A3%A1%E7%9A%84%E6%89%80%E6%9C%89%E6%B5%AA%E6%BC%AB%E4%B8%8D%E8%A6%81%E6%9C%89%E6%9C%9F%E5%BE%85%E5%B0%B1%E4%B8%8D-ho_PQu5aNtr/